An Interesting comparison between Stock Scatter and Soda Pop

Eugene

Saw this on reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/x9xsz/an_actual_mathematical_look_at_the_soda_popper_vs/

Quote:

"Engaging Team"

Why the hell is this even a comparison?

When people think of comp TF2 and the scout, the Soda Popper is usually the last thing on peoples'. In fact, had it not been for my poor frag video at times featuring the wonderful Jump4r, most people wouldn't have even assumed anyone actually uses it. In fact, after that video was released, I had more people asking me about why our scout seemingly always ran the Soda Popper when "the vanilla scattergun is the best" than I did about anything else. So why does he use it? Well, Jump4r is odd. If he's not using the SP, he's using the FaN, and I'd imagine he'd use the Shortstop before the regular Scattergun because we think he's slightly autistic. All that aside, I crunched some numbers for you guys because I'm sick and tired of people thinking it's a shit weapon when people use it in lobbies or pug.nahl. Get ready for some math.

The Graph

Because not everyone likes seeing the raw numbers, I made a quick excel graph showing the Scattergun's damage over time compared to the Soda Popper with and without mini-crits (shown for two full clips of the SG, or 12 shots).

Behold

Assumptions

If you're still reading this, you're probably like "what's this mean?" Well, I'm learn you somethin real quick like. There are several important things to look at and remember when looking at this graph; along with two important assumptions for the purpose of an accurate comparison. The first is assuming that both weapons are hitting for their maximum damage (105 and 142 respectively) and not missing. The chances of you hitting everyone of your shots at ramp-up range is slim to none. You're going to miss shots, you're going to be dodging around, and you won't be right up in that Solly's grill for more than 3 seconds (unless you're both doing something wrong). This actually brings up another advantage of the SP that we'll discuss later in that mini-crits don't take fall off damage. You'll be able to pop the medic for "mini-crit meat shots (around 120)" from a distance where the SG would only be able to do about 60-70. But again, we'll talk about how broken that is later.

The second assumption I'll be making is that you have mini-crits. If you want to talk about the SG vs the non MC SP that's fine, but I'm not interested in that. Anyone who's used the SP for more than 30 seconds is fully aware how fucking ridiculously easy it is to seemingly always have mini-crits. Even if you don't store them (and just run around using the SP) you'll have mini-crits roughly 40% of the time. It takes you a wee bit under 13 seconds to charge up your hype and you get that hype for a full 8 seconds (so yes, the last shot on the graph for the MC SP is technically incorrect). Balanced, right?

Analysis

Now for the fun part. What you'll notice right off the bat is that the Soda Popper can 2 shot every class in under a 3 third of a second except for a fully buffed soldier or heavy/buffed heavy. That's a HUGE advantage over the stock scattergun. However, the Scattergun actually beats the SP in the "race to 300" (an important number, as that is non-buffed heavy and a fully buffed Solly). So when taking on those two classes the scattergun theoretically is a better weapon. But what if the Heavy is buffed? If he's sitting at 450, or anything above 426, the stock Scout is in trouble. The SG not only shoots that critical kill shot at a slower rate than the SP, it has to fire an entire extra round. The SG will take down a fully buffed heavy in 2.5 seconds in 5 shots. The SP will take down the Heavy in 1.86 seconds (nearly a second quicker) with only 4 shots. Anyone who's danced around a heavy knows that a second can make the difference between life and death. So the Soda Popper has an advantage in terms of firing speed for the second and fourth shot, and disadvantage on the third, fifth, and sixth shot (and obviously anything after that it's a complete blowout that's not even worth discussing). But when you look at possible damage output, it's not even close. By the fourth shot the SP is so far ahead of the SG it's ridiculous. The SG puts out 420 damage while the SP puts out nearly 570 in less time.

Applicability/Conclusion

This is all assuming perfection of course. Perfection is, obviously, borderline unattainable. So what happens when you think about the SG and the SP with the human element added in? Depends on how you want to look at it. One of the most underrated benefits of the SP's mini-crits is the lack of fall off damage. With no random spread on, it's very possible to one shot scouts at a distance where they can only do 70-80 to you. This also means you can still 2 shot the medic as the pyro airblasts you away into a rocket that sends you flying. Play around with it. You'll be disgusted with the range the SP can still do 75 at. The pistol also gets mini-crit boosted, and being able to shoot out ~20 damage a pop from any range is an unbelievably beneficial effect. Hit the med for 120 as you fly around from spam? Fuck waiting to reload. Hit q, switch to your pistol, and spray fire from wherever the hell you are. That's the reason I love the SP. I'm not the greatest scout. My aim isn't perfect, and my movement is far from ideal. And jumping into the combo in HL as a scout means you're going to get screwed up. The moment you jump in the pyro, heavy, demo, solly, and god knows what else that came back for heals is going to be aiming at your frail, 125 hp body. With the SP all you really need to do is line up one shot and hold M1 (because .315 seconds is pretty damn quick). Bam. Med down. 2 points. Go team. Respawn, get dem cap points, and you're already top fragging. Any by the 9th shot, the SP has already put out more damage than 2 entire clips of the SG would have. You'll also always have mini-crits ready for mid (except koth_waste...I believe that's the only one where you won't have fully hype). Even at freaking Gullywash. Their demo better hope he picked up the big health pack because you're about to two shot him at a range that will get you a guaranteed "wow, that weapons shit" in your chat.

That being said, there are dowsides. Specifically, the "inbetween" time of 4th shot and the 7 shot when fighting another scout. Assuming all things equal, the SP is better for scout on scout fights. But things aren't always equal. The SP gives you the advantage of being able to 1 shot an opposing scout at any given time. But if you haven't killed that scout by your 4th shot you're actually at a disadvantage until his clip runs out. Also, that 3rd shot disadvantage kills with mini-sentries. They usually take 3 shots to kill, and sweet mother of god does that reload seem like it takes forever when it's just picking you apart.

So what do you guys think? Anyone else find these numbers as interesting as I do? Or is change too scary? What other benefits/weaknesses (I know there are some of those) have I missed?

FaN?

For those of you who are interested in the FaN and it's actual application in HL and more-6's, I'm so unqualified to discuss it it's not even funny. But if you are, the FaN-god known as Thief has two incredible FaN videos (shown here and here)The FaN should be left to trained professionals only.

Credits

All info was taken off of the TF2 official wiki. I'm literally typing this before I shower and head over to the lady friend's, taking my info from a napkin I wrote on and did math type things while I was on break during work today. This probably has numerous grammatical errors. 0 fucks will be given. If however you find mathematical errors please let me know Smile

"Have mini-crits. Engaging team"-Jump4r

~CRow

BarytaQ · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:56 am Post subject:

Without forced spread, SP is shit. But since comp configs get rid of that.... It straight up takes away a negative effect on the weapon. Dayum, never thought of that.
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Pharaoh Man · Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject:

This is actually very interesting. I love the Popper and it goes great with my Bonk Boy garb, but I just switched back to Scattergun because of tradition.

I might take it for a few spins in some lobbies and see what happens.
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BarytaQ · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:51 am Post subject:

I'm gonna say that it would take a lot of practice to get back into the swing of things with it.
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My pitiful backpack...
I'll still blow your ass up.

BarytaQ · Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:35 am Post subject:

Decided to give the popper a whirl. Gotta say, pretty fun in pubs. I routinely messed up on medics, but my 20 per shot pistol cleaned those messes up quickly enough. I'd give it a 6 out of 10 with no practice.
_________________
http://tf2b.com/profiles/76561197988317087
My pitiful backpack...
I'll still blow your ass up.